This interview was taken with Jim Dagan in March 2007

Ch. Seeonees Aragon

How did you get involved in Siberians?

We got involved in Siberians in 1982, shortly after our daughter Jennifer was born. Once we got settled in and accustomed to having a child, we decided we would like to have a dog. We had owned an Irish Setter and a Doberman before. I didn't want another Irish Setter because they are very hyper, at least ours was. We didn't want another Doberman because ours was afflicted with hip dysphasia. Lynne decided that she wanted a Siberian Husky. I wasn't really happy about her choice because all of the Siberians I had experience with, didn't have sensible owners. These people let their Siberians run around the neighborhood killing cats, chickens and all manner of other small animals. I didn't have a real high opinion of the breed because I didn't understand them, I blamed the dogs when I should have blamed the owners. We started looking around and we found in the paper, a little, backyard bred, gray female puppy. And that was the beginning of our love affair with Siberians. One thing led to another and it just escalated from there.

How did you get your kennel name? Can you answer this briefly.

Seeonee is the name of the wolf pack in The Jungle Book, one of my favorite books as a child. We thought that it looked good in print and sounded nice when spoken, so we decided that Seeonee would be our kennel name.

How did you find conformation?

We actually found conformation through the obedience classes we took our dogs to. They had a conformation class that started after the beginning obedience that we attended. We were invited to stay if we wanted watch the conformation training. We did stay and watch on occasion and found it interesting. They also had flyers announcing local fun matches. The people that ran these classes were old time show breeders of Whippets and Greyhounds, Herb and Martha Fielder. They were the ones that encouraged us to get into showing dogs. We started going to fun matches and quickly caught the bug. Our next step into the abyss was to purchase a show dog.

Who did you get your first Siberian from?

We actually got our first show dog from Maureen Gunderson (Fraka). We got our second show dog from Cheri Al-Mufti (Quiquern). They were two local breeders in the Northern California area. It just so happened that they were blood enemies over some incident that occurred when they were teenagers. It was rather unpleasant to be caught in the middle of their feud. Because we were novices that didn't know any better, we got caught up in this feud. Out of naive loyalty, we followed some bad advice that made us a pawn in their war. Events happened and opinions were formed (of Lynne and I) that unfortunately followed us all the way through the time we were in Siberians. We really didn't have any success at that time, but we learned what not to do and learned about dogs. This initial lack of success was probably for the best. I have noticed over the years that people who have a lot of success with their first dog, usually don't stay in the fancy very long. Later, when they start to show dogs that they bred, reality sets in and they are shocked to find out that this breeding / showing thing isn't as easy as it seemed at first. They got so used to winning that they often never bothered to learn the nuts and bolts of the breed, why a dog is either good or not so good. They may never learn to have a proper eye for a good dog. I think that you need to pay your dues at first. You need to experience the frustration of consistently losing to motivate you to learn all you can about your breed and about showmanship, so you can eventually have success. I don't think you can properly appreciate success unless you have struggled to achieve it.

Did you have a mentor?

No, not one particular mentor. We have tried to pick up something from everyone around us. We did learn a lot from Cheri Al-Mufti. She had a real focus on structure and movement especially the smoothness and fluidity of the properly built Siberian. She was pretty good at telling you want to look for ringside.

Which dogs in the early years influenced your breeding program and why?

One of the first dogs that impressed me was a dog named Ch. Sierra’s Hawkeye who was being specialed early on when we were showing our first show dog. He really flowed when he went around the ring. He was balanced, he reached, and he drove. He was really a marvelous moving dog and to me breathtaking. I really didn't know a lot about the breed at that time, but what I did know was I liked what I saw. He just floated around the ring. I wanted a dog that could take your breath away when they moved. His exceptional side gait had a powerful influence on me, as far as movement and structure being really important to me.

Who was your foundation bitch and what was it about her that you thought could contribute to your breeding program?

Well, as far as foundation. We actually had two starts, maybe three in Siberians. We never really went anywhere with Maureen Gunderson’s stuff. We had that one puppy that did not grow up to be anything that we wanted to show. She had such a hate on for Cheri that she didn't want anything of her breeding to be bred to anything of Cheri's, so that pretty much ended that. We didn't have a whole lot of luck with Cheri's dogs either. She was better at finding a good dog than breeding one. Our kennel set-up wasn't that good and I wasn't that good at monitoring things, so we had a couple of accidental breeding's. The resultant offspring were just ordinary. In hindsight, no surprise, the parents were fairly ordinary. Most of them ended up with cataracts. About 80% cataracts out of two litters. At this point we were ready to just give up. However, around this time, Sharon Osharow had returned to California from New York where she had worked with the Kanzlers. She had some dogs that she brought with her and I liked many of these dogs. That was our second start, third if I count the Fraka dog. We purchased a puppy dog from Sharon who ended up Ch. Kristari's Gray Riesling (Reese). we also purchased a puppy bitch from Judy Russell, Karnovanda's Dreamscape (Frieda). Reese was out of Ch. Kristari's Pacific Skyline x Innisfree's Unique Chic. Frieda was out of Ch Karnovanda's Dreambear and Ch. Karnovanda's Angeline. She was a pretty little black and white bitch, nice and sound, really nice front on her, not a great temperament. Because of her temperament, we could never actually show her. The only litter she had was with Reese. He was a real nice dog, a tall dog, top of standard. Nice mover, nice and balanced. Not the prettiest head in the world, big ears. Overall, a good quality dog to start with. A real honest dog. When we bred those two together we got some fine moving animals. A little bulkier than I would like but it was more important to Lynne and I that they be sound and have good solid fronts, balanced, and have really good feet. They had all of that. Things just went from there. We started taking those puppies to shows and started to win. It was probably 5-6 years into it from the time we started before we had some success, but during that time we learned a lot. We would stay and watch the groups and Best in Show. We would watch the top handlers. The ones that were very professional, the ones that did an excellent job of presenting their dog. I would then try and emulate them. We went to the best handling classes we could find. I was honing my skills as a handler, but we were still scratching our heads, when we would see dogs winning and we couldn't really see what was better about them. We asked a handler, a friend Lynn Littel if she had any suggestions. She gave us a few tips and a little bit of advise which made me a better handler and made us better at grooming. It made us understand what you are trying to achieve when you groom a dog. But I still didn't have the dogs to work with until we got that Karnovanda bitch and Kristari dog to work with, then we went from there.

So which Siberians or kennels have had the most impact of establishing the style of Siberian that you prefer?

It’s a combination. I've always admired the soundness of Judy’s dogs. I always liked that they usually had really good feet. I liked their solidness. I think that is where our really good fronts came from as well as good angles and good upper arm length. I used to see a lot of Innisfree dogs that I admire. It was a combination of a lot of different kennels, Judy, Kathleen and obviously Sharon Osharow because we were very close with her for a long time.  We were having success. We did some things with those different pedigrees. Most of the stuff comes down from Cinnar even the ones from Judy had Cinnar in their pedigrees, so it was just kind a mixture of that.

Did you prefer to line breed or out cross?

Actually, both are important. I prefer line breeding, but out crossing is necessary to bring in traits that you don't have. There are certain traits that are dominant, so if you don't have them in your gene pool you can't get them unless you out cross to bring them in. It’s a little more of a crap shoot with out crossing but we actually had pretty good luck when we did out cross.

Is phenotype more important than pedigree?

No, they are both important. They both may be equally important. Phenotype is really important because that is what you have, that’s what is expressed. The pedigree tells you what is behind them and how likely they are to reproduce their qualities or their faults or what else is lurking there. So you don't want to use a dog that does not have good phenotype. Every dog has a fault, but if they don't have a good front or rear I don't care what their pedigree is and I don't mean if they are a little off, but if they're bad, they're bad, I don't care what their pedigree is. But pedigrees are very important.

How important is the title CH in your breeding program?

Well, a CH is important to me. I didn't exhibit a dog that wasn't worthy of a Championship. I never went to a show that I didn't think I had the best dog or one of the best dogs there. We were very, very critical of our dogs. We weren't just puffing ourselves up and saying we had a good dog. You can finish anything if you go to the right show, use the right handler, go to the right judges but that doesn't make it a Champion. It doesn't make it worth anything. Everyone that is involved and knows anything about dogs, knows which dogs are cheap Champions, and which ones are meaningful Champions. It has importance to me because I know it wasn't done with politics. Our Champion titles were obtained on the merits of the dog, and it was a worthy animal.

What advise would you give someone starting their breeding program?

The advise I would give them is to learn about the breed, everything about the breed before even embarking on a breeding program. I would advise them to find a really good mentor. Someone that will be honest with them and someone that isn't going to put their agenda first. Someone that truly wants to share their knowledge. I wouldn't take anybody’s word as gospel. I would listen to everything and use my own intellect and common sense to decide what makes sense and what doesn't. Frankly, I have heard stuff that is just accepted as gospel from people that have been around for 30-40 years or more and it just doesn't ring true. There is a lot of wisdom and a lot of truth that you can get from these same people, so it is one of those things that you have to gradually learn. Read everything you can on your breed. You have to see it and experience it for yourself.

What is the most important thing to look for in a stud when breeding your bitch?

The most important thing to look for is a stud that compliments your bitch. If you have a really lovely bitch that is off in the rear. You don't want to breed to a dog that is off in the rear or has a background of being off in the rear. You try to improve a trait even if he is faulty in other ways. The stud needs to compliment her and bring strength where she is weak. Knowing the pedigree is also important. I'll use rears as an example I have seen dogs with good rears produce consistently bad rears because they have a long history of ancestors with a poor rears You have to know what’s behind the dog to know how likely they are to produce that trait.

At what age do you rate a litter?

Eight weeks is a good time for us. It could be 8-12 weeks. We learned that, when we first got into dogs, and it’s proven true all the way through. Some puppies are not quite mature enough at 8 weeks and you have to wait a little bit longer. Usually 10 weeks but by 12 weeks you should know. There is a window there that they are kind of together, where they are a little miniature version of what they will be as an adult. Most of the time, at least with my dogs, if they were a good balanced puppy and they did what we wanted them to do and they looked the way we wanted them to look, no matter what stages they went through between then and adulthood, when they were a totally mature adult, they would exhibit the same qualities they had at 8-12 weeks.

What are you looking for at that age?

I am mainly looking for movement. I want to see them single track. I want to see good foot timing, not over reaching, no wide fronts or rears. Balanced, covering a lot of ground. Usually, the better puppies trot a lot, they're comfortable with that gait. Typically, if you have trouble getting puppies to trot, and they are uncomfortable trotting, often there is problem. That isn't always the case but generally it is. It's also important to know pedigrees and understand how certain lines and dogs have developed and matured. You are looking to avoid certain things such as big heads, short muzzles, round eyes. You want them to be typey too. You want them to have the right look. The more you know your line, the more you know your pedigrees, the more you can tell this one is going to be to heavy in the head, this one is too short in the muzzle, this one is going to be too short legged, etc. You have to account for that because you can breed yourself into a corner and end up with a whole bunch of dogs, of a style or type, that aren't pleasing, or correct. Breeding success can hinge on how well you rate your litters and what you chose to keep, exhibit and breed.

When evaluating a litter, which traits are a crap shoot? Or to state it better…which traits are a hope and a prayer?

Well, coats, are kind of, a hope and a prayer. You are counting on your pedigree, along with the phenotype of the parents, to help you predict coat quality. Unfortunately they don't always lead you down the right path. It's hard to tell, you can have a really fluffy puppy that turns out to be fairly tight coated when its an adult. And vice versa. If you are doing an out cross, many type issues are a hope and a prayer because you're not exactly sure how those pedigrees are going to combine and what they are going to give you. Now if the puppy moves well, it will probably move well as an adult but as far as type issues they can fool you. The squatty puppy can turn out to be leggy, the bigger puppy can turn out to be squatty.